20180319 📞 RLC’s Don Golden
Logan M Isaac: [00:00:00] Calling Don Golden of Red Letter Christians,
Don Golden: Don Golden.
Logan M Isaac: Hey Don, this is Logan. I just saw your email, but I only have about 15 minutes before I have to be on another call.
Don Golden: Okay. That's, that's, we should be able to. Chat that amount of time. Uh, where are you calling from? Logan,
Logan M Isaac: North Carolina, the Triangle, Durham.
Don Golden: Okay, cool. I'm a daughter at UNC Chapel Hill.
Logan M Isaac: Cool. That's where my wife works. She's at University UMC down there.
Don Golden: Awesome. Um, what, what do we, I just wanted to, uh, speak personally with you to see. Uh, what you think we can do should do with what we have. You can't come to the gathering, is that right?
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. I've got something that same day actually in DC
Don Golden: That's the seventh.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah, the Saturday, right?
Don Golden: Uhhuh?
Logan M Isaac: Yeah.
Don Golden: Yeah. What about the night [00:01:00] before on the sixth?
Logan M Isaac: Uh, it would be difficult. I remember looking at the travel time. I, I don't think it could be an evening thing, so I would be four hour
Don Golden: drive. Four hour drive.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. That'd be tough. Yeah,
Don Golden: because it's, we only, we only have the evening.
Logan M Isaac: Oh yeah.
Don Golden: And you can't be back for the evening, the Saturday the evening. Yeah. I mean, four hour drive, that's which, that's a chunk of time.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. I may know people in the area. I know a couple of Liberty grads who are vets. Yeah. Um, that was one thing I was trying to look up today. I just got behind. Um, I've got a, it's a board of directors call and I'm responsible for the agenda.
Don Golden: Yeah, I understand. Um, what do you, you know, I, I, let me just jump right in. You, your, you have been a revelation to me and, uh, a helpful pulling as I'm many, many issues of, uh, justice and justice and righteousness that the church needs to call out, needs to own, it needs to repent of, um. [00:02:00] Uh, are coming to me all the time, and I've been doing this work in some way for 25 years.
Um, and so what you have brought has been a personal conviction to me and has heightened my own awareness. I have been so anti-war my whole life that I think I, and I know I've been conflicted about, um, where that puts me with my own family members who are soldiers and, um. It, it's always been a challenge.
Uh, so you, you, that's just been very helpful. I just wanna thank you for that. Yeah. I appreciate
Logan M Isaac: it. Um,
Don Golden: secondly, uh, you know, I was curious about the clarity that you have when it comes to calling Shane out on that, uh, use of fiance, um, in, in your mind, that's something that needs to be condemned. What her, her, her music and what her use of, uh, militant, uh, [00:03:00] language.
Is that, is that, is that what I understand?
Logan M Isaac: Uh, no, I think we need to be able to call a spade a spade and whoever said it, um, is they're saying to get No, I'm just
Don Golden: saying. I'm just saying that, uh, that Shane borrowed. From her appropriation of something and I, I, I just want to make sure I sort of understand how you view that.
Logan M Isaac: Yes. I think that's basically accurate. Yeah. Beyonce, I don't think was in the military and she doesn't seem to be using it in a way that suggests that it's a formation of dancers. Just goes on to say slay. So it seems like it's. Using military language.
Don Golden: Yeah, yeah, it is. It's definitely using military language.
And, and I just want to understand your thinking about that, about uh, 'cause I think, it seems to me my whole life, I'm 51, that military language has been [00:04:00] appropriated for, you know, war on drugs, you know, for everything. And, um, so I just.
Logan M Isaac: Don, you still there? Uh, you cut off? Uh, uh Oh, Don, shoot. That's weird. Well,
Don Golden: you have a, you have an unknown number, so I'm glad you called back.
Logan M Isaac: Oh yeah. I'm calling from my computer 'cause I'm just waiting on the board call. Okay. Um, okay.
Don Golden: Uh,
Logan M Isaac: I, I think appropriation is fine as long as it is accompanied by appreciation. So Shane's saying it is different than Beyonce saying it. Shane got into a bit of a, an interesting spot when, a couple months ago when he said that Christians don't make good soldiers or soldiers don't make good enemy, something like that.
And he ran afoul of a couple of military people and then he pulled me in. So it was actually an African [00:05:00] American female student of mine, uh, about a year ago who said that appropriation in and of itself isn't bad. But if you, if you fail or refuse to appreciate the culture from which that language or culture finds meaning, then that's where the problem lies.
Um, and Shane and I have had conversations about that and we're working through like nuance of military culture and he and I are supposed to have a phone call where we'll talk about the theological basis that I think that we need to be coming from that doesn't make uninformed judgment calls about the military.
In fact, I think we need to be more judgemental, but we need to be wiser in making the judgements about the military that we do. Um, so that's why I suggested, um, military social justice. There's workshops I'm giving. This is exactly what I talk about. Um, and I, I'm happy to support Red Letter Christians and I, I think you all do a lot more than other orgs, but.
Um, because, [00:06:00] uh, because there's no other, because there's no civilians speaking up for the military as the military without qualification, or at least without, um, you know, relying on the kind of typical ideological binaries that we, uh, that we put people into. Um, I, I can't say anything without it looking like I'm just criticizing red letter Christians, so I can't say anything until we have something.
Concrete that we can point to to say, okay, this is what RLC. Is offering in terms of going deeper into this conversation. Um, and I, I, I, I don't know if I was clear, but uh, that could be something as simple as working with me to promote one in, uh, you know, a, a certain city or a certain timeframe. Train said that I, that I'm on some kind of docket for the next, uh, red letter of Christian's gathering in December.
Um, I could [00:07:00] give one then, or I could give one before then, so that the Red Letter Christian, uh, network has some things to talk about when we come together in December. Um mm-hmm. And it doesn't, I mean, it's not incredibly complex, it's just a matter of securing a venue, um, and pro promoting it. Basically, I've got the content, uh, being finalized now.
Um, or the other thing I suggested was saying something, um, on, on whatever channels that email went out to, because I was, I heard from at least one subscriber to RLC who said, Hey, did you see this? Um, which is kind of how it goes? And I said, no. And then I said, um, well, you know, how do you, what do you think about that?
And I haven't really responded to them, um mm-hmm. But until I have something to say to them. Or something constructive to point to. Um, I, I, I need something that makes clear, um, where I'm coming from in terms of ministry. [00:08:00] And if I can't point to RLC saying or doing or promising something, I need to at least make it clear why some of this stuff is problematic.
Because right now you and I, and, and Shane and I have had these conversations, but um, for Christians in the military, it's still a big great question mark. Um, they don't know what to think. They don't know if they're supposed to feel shame or pride or something in between or nothing at all.
Don Golden: Yeah. Um,
Logan M Isaac: so that's what's concerning me.
Okay. So
Don Golden: you can get to your, so you can get to your call. Let me, um, put this out there. As the executive director of Red Letter Christians, let me invite you to, you know, we are a movement, so we are only what we are. Yeah.
Logan M Isaac: So
Don Golden: at this point we are not informed adequately. About what you're talking about. Um, we're, but, um, you see that we are responsive and committed, uh, and ready.
Um, we're not resisting in any way. [00:09:00] Um, it's like when there's no gay people with you, you don't know how to talk about it. You don't know what to think, you don't know what you're missing. Um, and now we have lots of gay people with us and we're now, um. More than, more than good allies. We are a reflection of, uh, a gospel that's inclusive and affirming
Logan M Isaac: absolutely as we
Don Golden: go in that direction.
Um, so the only way we can give you what you want right now, which is what we need, is for you to do it. And, and that really means that you take on the label and you say, I, here's what we did, you know, to whoever is your writer. I wrote them. I challenged them, they repented, they, or, you know, they acknowledged anyway, I should say.
Uh, repentance is an action and, uh, they invited me to join. And, uh, that means, you know, what, what are we, well, we're not a whole lot. It's not like we're some big institution with lots of money and lots of channels. We have a, we have a communication [00:10:00] platform which is wide open to you and anyone in your network.
Uh, and we have an annual retreat. Um, which is an invitation only, we only have 10 new people per year. And so I don't, uh, you know, that, that might be some, uh, Shane may have already talked to you about coming to that and being part of that. We don't even know where it's gonna be. Uh, and then, you know, we do any for anyone in that network, let's say we don't, typically, this revival's the first public event we've actually ever held.
Mm-hmm. Um, so it's not like we do a bunch of those and we're so incapacitated with money, without money that Yeah. You know, we do things and we hope the Lord respond. So, in other words. It would be more about when are you doing something that we can get behind and try to throw some energy on and, and put the, you know, what, what begins to happen, which is really wonderful if you work this.
This family of red letter leaders. Yeah. There's 180 influential communicators that over [00:11:00] time begin to be, um, challenged, first and annoyed maybe, and then Oh, yes. And then okay, and now, and, and they're beginning to write about it and understand, you see what I'm saying?
Logan M Isaac: Yeah, absolutely.
Don Golden: So it's, uh, it's potentially a, a force multiplier for you, but, but really it.
Let's just say you, you didn't wanna be a red letter Christian and do this. We would just be calling you all the time to say, well, what do we do to this? What? Do you know what I mean? So, mm-hmm. It's really about saying, brother, if you got the vision, you got the mission. The price you have to pay is you, you have to be guilty by association with us.
You know, you can't, yeah. Distance yourself from us and then say, you know, when you come around, that's not family. That's not Christ. That's not the way the family works. Um, as long as you hear from us that you know, that commitment to learn and grow, which is definitely there from all of us at the center, which is Elena, the editor with myself, executive director Shane, the spiritual leader and president.
Uh, Tony is, [00:12:00] you know, I, I don't know where he's, where he is on this, but I've never seen him reject a justice issue.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. Or
Don Golden: nuance of one. So I think that I agree that would be a problem. So, you know that, so then the mechanics of how we do that, and sometimes we may disagree on and we may say, Hey, we, we don't think that one appropriation.
We think that's the, that's the catalyst. You know, we said something, it, it caused offense. We're, we may, I don't know. I'm not saying that we, we couldn't get out to that channel. I think that maybe the next thing would be is that you are a guest writer for that same email block and you, you get to say what you want about that.
You know, this, this is what was said and here's how I felt about it. And so this is what we do. That'd be a great letter, you know, to go out because it illustrates. Not only the content of what we're saying, but the character of who we have to be as, uh, as red letter Christians. We have to be responsive, repentance, um, we have to learn.
But on the other hand, as, as you know, the, the. [00:13:00] We so-called progressives is what? Which is what we're called. We seem to never agree because no one has peer a peer enough cause, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. No, no one does. And everybody pulls, pulls apart from one another. Um, and one of the things that Red Letter Christians tries to be is that family.
You know, over time we, we do these retreats. We've been hanging out with each other for 10 years, as this circle grows and, you know, want you to be a part of it, lead us, guide us, represent us, challenge us. Uh, and, you know, be this, uh, source of, um, justice and prophetic voice that we're trying to be.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. Um, uh, I, yeah, the idea of guest writing for, uh, an email that goes out I hadn't thought of, I think could be really good.
Um, why don't we work by email to set up. Like I, I can do these, uh, workshops [00:14:00] anywhere. It's just a matter of finding a venue. And then, like I said, just promoting it. It's really not, um, it doesn't have to be complicated as long as there's something to point people to. It doesn't have to be a full revival.
Um,
Don Golden: sure.
Logan M Isaac: But, um, that helps. Well,
Don Golden: I am, I am, I'm swallowed whole with this one until April. Seventh or eighth. So, um, whatever, you know what, whatever we can do, especially after that, or if you can get someone there, um, a, a, you know, a three minute witness from a, from a soldier. I almost had a, uh. Uh, a gay, black preacher woman, um, uh, Marine, uh, liberty grad.
Can you imagine? I mean, every, practically, every button, every, she's a unicorn. What, what's her name? Uh, but she just couldn't cover. Her name is Candace Hardnett. She's amazing. She's on Augusta, Georgia. You could Google her. She's really incredible. Okay. Yeah.
Logan M Isaac: Thought I was thinking of someone else, but, okay, cool.
Don Golden: She, she wasn't able to come, but if you, if you can get anyone there to do a workshop, we'll put that on. If you can [00:15:00] get anyone there for a three minute, uh, witness, um, we, you, we'd put them on. Uh, so, you know, I know it's short notice, but just those two things are open to you. But I would take the posture to anyone that's calling is, Hey, you, you were right to catch it.
I caught it. And, um, you know, we we're, uh, we're working with them and we're gonna educate them and, uh, strengthen their voice and, and their sensibilities. You know, it's like. It's like when you, you know, you, you buy a Jeep, you realize everybody's, you know, you see every Jeep that goes by. And, um, once you see this issue, uh, especially the way you presented it to us, I see it now.
And, um, I need to be reminded. I need to appropriate it for myself and I need, I need to inform how I engage these issues. So we welcome you to do that. So if there's anyone who can speak on the issue for the revival at any level, we can try to, you know. Work them into the program. Otherwise, after the event, let's pick [00:16:00] up, uh, you know, what it is that, uh, would be best.
Logan M Isaac: Okay. Yeah, I can do that. Um,
Don Golden: awesome love.
Logan M Isaac: Uh, if, if someone is able to be there, what to, what should I tell 'em to expect in terms of audience size or structure?
Don Golden: Um, well for the, uh, you know, if it's a brief. Wi what we're calling witness. And you know, Uhhuh, it's a three minute testimony and that's, that's as many as 2000 people, that it's 1500 to 2000.
The venue seats 2100 and we're okay expecting a good turnout on both nights. So 1500, let's just say. And at the workshops we're still forming them, even though we only have 18 days, we're still forming them. Uh, we anticipate three to 500 people, um, divided into eight different workshops. So you're probably talking about a, uh, 30, 30 people, 30.
50 people in a workshop. Okay? And it would probably be shared on some topic. Either like a binary that's considered opposites, you know, a peacemaker. I, I don't know. We'd just have to figure that [00:17:00] out. Uh, depending on who you have, that's the issue that we're doing right now. It's just what are the issues and who do we have?
Okay. And, you know, could be a potpourri two hour session that, that just has a range of different justice issues that aren't on people's radar. Um, if you have a really strong presenter that's got, you know, that can pull a crowd. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. We could make it a whole thing, you know, so it's just.
We're, we're flexible.
Logan M Isaac: Okay. Well, I, most of the folks that I know well would be uncomfortable with the crowd size, but, um, I have a couple of folks in mind. One is a local pastor, not a vet, but who's had vet congregants and then one of the other guild guys, Matt Mormon, he may be able to make it out there.
He's, um, really big into, um, uh, uh, Tony Jones and, um. What do they call him? Progressive youth ministry. And I think he might, he's more mobile. He hasn't, he doesn't have kids at least. Anyway, I'll, I'll see what Dave, him, if possible.
Don Golden: We [00:18:00] don't have, don't, we don't have a lot of flexibility for a main stage speaker.
Right. I just wrapping that up. But we do have flexibility for the, uh, at least for a few more days for the, uh, workshop. Um, but you know, don't, just because I have so many moving pieces, don't overstretch yourself or, you know, push yourself or someone if it's not a natural fit, we'll just take that as a sign to do something afterward and be given where you're located in Jonathan Wilson, Hargrove in the neighborhood.
We can some, we, we can figure out something to do that will be good and, um, and appropriate.
Logan M Isaac: Yeah. Um, oh, neither, I think Matt may be. Able to do a workshop type thing. 'cause he's done stuff before. Um, the other person, local pastor might be, uh, you know, a short testimony, but if I'm gonna find out if they're able to and willing, and then if not, then it's a moot point.
But, we'll, we'll focus on after April and thinking through what this looks like long term. That's fine.
Don Golden: A any, any women in your network? [00:19:00] Uh,
Logan M Isaac: mostly in the West coast.
Don Golden: Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah. Okay. Alright, Logan, keep, keep me posted. You, do you have, are you picking up my cell phone number while you have it from my email?
So Yeah. Yeah, call me anytime.
Logan M Isaac: Okay. Sounds good. Thanks again, Don.
Don Golden: Yep.
Logan M Isaac: Alright.
Don Golden: Bye.
